Wow. Another great depiction Mr. Wuerker.
Trump wants the water full of arsenic (and old lace!)
Finally! A promise he’s actually keeping!
Trump is a fool, but he’s worse than a fool. He’s a ghoul.
He is the worst kind of bully — one who can take nothing that is dished out but wants to dish out the worst to one and all. The man has never so much as been put in the corner by anyone, but he’s wiling to go all Inquisition on EVERYbody.
Photo from a Russian hotel?
Q: Is torture immoral?
A: We have a new standard.
Q: You did not answer my question.
A: We have always been at war will Eastasia. And two legs better.
The Fink and his Kink…
But remember, El Douche never said what he said.
Gina Haspel refused to answer YES or NO on whether waterboarding and other torture (F the “interrogation techniques” BS) is immoral. Answers such as “Senator, what I believe sitting here today is that I support the higher moral standard we have decided to hold ourselves to” are dishonest. The Geneva conventions spelled out the moral standard the US had promised to adhere to; calling POWs “enemy combatants” doesn’t negate Geneva agreements. Congress re-stating this after the torture was done was redundant as far as the moral standards that SHOULD have been followed.
Bring back torture. Wouldn’t want anyone to think Americans are civilized or anything.
Torture works. That’s why nearly every government on the face of the earth, past and present, has used it to gather intelligence.
I’d be happy to give Trump a little lesson on water boarding and some of those other lovely things I’m familiar with from ‘Nam. After all, he’s got his “Deliverance” gear on and is ready to squeal like a pig.
My eyes!!!! Now, there’s a view of Trump I can’t unsee.
Question one ANDYLIT: #1Are you willing to torture? #2. What happens to your soul? R#3. Would you tell your parents, wife or your children your tortured someone? #4 What would you do if you found out you tortured an innocent human being? #5. Would you want our soldiers treated humanely, or by torture methods you approve? Would you undergo your selected approved torture methods? www.armed-services.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Detainee-Report-Final_April22-2009.pdf
Ahab, andylit has a very different moral/ethical code than we do. For him, it’s whatever he thinks “works”, but he’s too biased to even read the research that proves him wrong. It’s a waste of time to read his screeds or to reply.
Martens, the dude is professional right-wing.
25,000 + posts on the Hill, Comics Kingdom, CNBC, Daily Caller, Mother Jones, etc., etc.
If s/he is not paid to do so , we are witness to some serious mental aberrations. At an average of 5 min. per post (reading / processing subject, considering / formulating response, typing / proofreading), that adds up to about 88 days — 24/7 —
…the willful doing without certain obvious pieces of information – That is the closest I can come to explaining the legions, the nations of lunatics I’ve seen in my time.”
AndyLit makes a very stupid unqualified statement.
Yes, the Japanese had a pretty good idea that it [Navajo code-talker language] was Navajo. This is why they tortured a Navajo named Joe Kieyoomia (1919–1997). He was captured in the Philippines and on the Bataan Death march. Later, he survived Nagasaki, too. He was a member of the New Mexico 200th Coast Artillery.
They first tortured him because they thought he was Japanese-American. After several months, they accepted that he was Navajo.
[Yeah, torture really showed the Japanese the truth, huh?]
Then, later, they came to him with a list of words (that they had tried to write down, so they could repeat what they were hearing on the radios), and asked him what they were.
He could confirm it was lists of Navajo words, but it was nonsense to him. 《He was not trained in the memorized code that had been developed in San Diego, in 1942; 421 were trained in the code》 Then they tortured him, and that ended any attempt to really break the code. Without a willing Navajo to work with, progress on the code-breaking project was stalled for a long time.
[Another win for torture! Err, well, maybe not…]
The difficult consonants, vowels, and the tonal structure made it impossible for most untrained people to even transcribe. The Japanese had been good at breaking every code before that.
Kieyoomia was in the Japanese POW camps for 43 months.
… during the European witch craze the Duke of Brunswick in Germany invited two Jesuit scholars to oversee the Inquisition’s use of torture to extract information from accused witches. “The Inquisitors are doing their duty. They are arresting only people who have been implicated by the confession of other witches,” the Jesuits reported. The duke was skeptical. Suspecting that people will say anything to stop the pain, he invited the Jesuits to join him at the local dungeon to witness a woman being stretched on a rack. “Now, woman, you are a confessed witch,” he began. “I suspect these two men of being warlocks. What do you say? Another turn of the rack, executioners.” The Jesuits couldn’t believe what they heard next. “No, no!” the woman groaned. “You are quite right. I have often seen them at the Sabbat. They can turn themselves into goats, wolves and other animals…. Several witches have had children by them. One woman even had eight children whom these men fathered. The children had heads like toads and legs like spiders.” Turning to the flabbergasted Jesuits, the duke inquired, “Shall I put you to the torture until you confess?”
One of these Jesuits was Friedrich Spee, who responded to this poignant experiment on the psychology of torture by publishing a book in 1631 entitled Cautio Criminalis, which played a role in bringing about the end of the witch mania and demonstrating why torture as a tool to obtain useful information doesn’t work.
I would prefer not to personally but under certain scenarios I can say that I most likely would do so.
#2. What happens to your soul?
I am an atheist, but I take your point. For me I believe it would scar my psyche and follow me for a long time, perhaps until death.
#3. Would you tell your parents, wife or your children your tortured someone?
Is it classified? Would I brag about it? No. I expect I would handle it much the same way combat vegetarians handle their experiences. No way to know until you get there.
Stupid question, irrelevant. Our soldiers are already being tortured by our Islamist enemies when captured.
Would you undergo your selected approved torture methods?
Another stupid question. All of our interrogators, civilian and military, undergo (or did before the law changed) SERE-C training and beyond to better understand their own jobs.
Martens claims I refuse to read information I think I will disagree with. The reality is that I read as much as I can from different sources and then make informed decisions and conclusions.
Some how I doubt she or any of my other discussion partners have taken the time to extensively plow through the sources I have provided here on multiple occasions. Perhaps the fact that I direct people to the NSA archive materials the pre-date the political effort to convince the world that torture doesn’t work.
Given the wealth of training materials covering “coercive” techniques offered by the CIA and the US Army, over an extended period of time it appears that our intel people were quite confident of the efficacy. Right up until their political masters instructed them to change their minds.
Read ALL of it. All the links. All the documents. Don’t just skim them and cherry pick. Pay close attention to the early manuals. Pay close attention to the fact that substantial effort is devoted to making sure interrogators EFFECTIVELY use coercive methods (pain).
I am always amused when someone decides that I get paid for expressing my opinion. If only it were so.
Yes Guy, I have 25,000 plus posts on Disqus. Of course, you failed to mention it took 7 years to get there. Since you like math, that comes to about 11 posts per day. I propose you take a look at few of the people who I “duel” with here and do a message count. Mental aberrations, each and every one of them? Paid trolls?
If I understand you correctly the fact that I am conservative and prolific climatically means I am a troll, insane, or both. Yet you apparently have no problem the substantial group of people here who post as much or more than I do, but with ideas you agree with.
I realize it is difficult for you to understand that others can type faster, think faster, have better memories and are far better informed than you are. I wish I could say I feel the pain of your inadequacy. But I don’t.
Cherry picking a handful of cases of successful resistance makes for a lovely post as you speak to your peers, but it doesn’t carry any weight in debate.
Sadly, WWII is replete with cases in which interrogation failed to hold out against “professionally” administered torture. This is true for the Axis powers and for the allies as well. All sides tortured for intelligence.
The most compelling modern argument for the efficacy of torture is the record of the Gestapo in France. Under Klaus Barbie and men like him, the Nazis were very effective in rooting out partisans and resistance groups.
The same can be said for the Japanese. For the Soviets. And yes, for the US and GB.
What a whiner. Boosting your ego is not our job. Read my post carefully. You made the unqualified statement, “Torture Works.” That reads as an absolute. And that is clearly false. Only a single example would suffice to destroy that unqualified statement. So you have no reason to carp, except for opening yourself to a valid and logically correct criticism.
Also in the last question, from Ahab, you did a lying little dance. He asked whether you would undergo the torture, not the other people you mention. You. and only you.
BTW, there is a hilarious typo in your response to Ahab’s third question: “combat vegetarians” The ways of the “spell checker” are mysterious … and sometimes just bloody crazy.
Baslim, I think Guy is quite correct about Andylit.
I suggest you check with a logician before you make stupid statements.
I said “Torture Works”. You can choose to read it as an absolute, or not.
I did not say “Torture Always Works”. That would have been an absolute.
My response to the torture question is declarative, but since you insist, no, I would not willingly undergo torture. That would be stupid. I for some unlikely reason I was required to go through SERE-C, I still would not undergo torture because waterboarding is not torture. Would I volunteer for teeth and toenails, pliers and fire? Well gosh Bas, what do you think?
As for combat vegetarians I’m gonna have to copy that one and save it. Good catch and thanks for pointing it out.
Your grasp of language is weak. What is the word “always” in that sentence? It is a qualifier.Yes, it would be an absolute, just as saying “Torture Never Works” would be an absolute.
Nevertheless, your statement was an unqualified statement. And as written, you are arguing that torture should always be used because it “works”. As I showed, this notion is easily refuted.
As far as Ahab’s questions go, they have shown that you seem to feel that nothing is served by the USA taking a road different from the likes of the Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and North Korea by not having torture as an official option. And that you think that training folks to be torturers is a good thing. That is a slippery slope toward a tyranny of official suppression and intimidation because the definition of “terrorist” seems to be highly subjective and malleable.
Case in point, Oliver North calling the students from Parkland “civil terrorists.” This from the man who helped real terrorists get weapons. In case you have forgotten, “contras” murdered nuns in El Salvador. I guess North would call the nuns “civil terrorists,” too.
Keep up the good work, the good little men who are only following orders cannot get power without your help.
Baslim, I will not get bogged in your foolish semantic argument. You know and I know that I said no such thing. If it makes you happy I will offer this.
Torture works well enough and often enough that is has been used in intelligence gathering for all of recorded history. Now you can rest easy.
My answers to Ahab’s questions don’t “seem” to show anything other than exactly what I have written. I make simple statements in response to the idea that torture does not work, or never works.
I point to the fact that every government, even our own, has taken the position that it does work. I have offered links to US government documents that prove that our own government officially and unofficially considered coercive torture to be effective. To the point that both our military and civilian saw fit to create detailed training manuals on “coercive” interrogation. I have pointed out that large bodies of evidence from WWII make it clear that the Nazis used torture quite effectively to ferret out resistance fighters and groups.
Now, I happen to be one of those people who supports the use of torture, enhanced techniques, coercive measures, whatever you want to call it, by our government, against foreign nationals, when circumstances arise that merit same.
However, my opinion use or prohibition is not the topic of debate. We are discussing the very narrow topic of whether or not the use of torture for intel gathering is effective. Does it work? The fact that you and others condemn me as a monster because I take that position is absurd. Feel free to despise me for my previous paragraph, but hating me because I have produced evidence that disproves your opinion is just stupid.
Baslim caught my spell check brain fart and pointed it out. My girlfriend thought it was hilarious and posted it into her veterans FB group. The group loved it. Nearly 100 likes in an hour plus some fun responses.
A new marching cadence
Where have you been?!?!
To the garden and back again!!!!
They got nothing on combat vegans though. Those effers are serious.
Combat Virgins? They dont eff up anything but a wet dream.
Combat Veterinarians that are vegan, vegetarian, and slightly confused…
How about a lacto pesca combat vegetarian? He is getting it on with the dueling celery sticks, with a side of cheddar, and lightly broiled trout.